Curse

Shiing! · Mar 26, 2008, 10:13 AM // 10:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faer

I thought it was said that, as with GW1, GW2 would be designed to scale well for those with older systems. If I'm not mistaken, and that is the case...

The U3 engine for GW2? Not so sure how that'd work out.

The U3 engine works great on lower-end systems. The Unreal team made sure of this, with the settings scaled down obviously.

Maybe this is what interested Anet

zwei2stein · Mar 26, 2008, 10:39 AM // 10:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shiing!

The U3 engine works great on lower-end systems. The Unreal team made sure of this, with the settings scaled down obviously.

Maybe this is what interested Anet

UT3 Engine is still way worse.

GW engine runs smoothly on all my systems with details on middle settings, and is reasonably choppy (~15FPS) with everything except AA on max. (1248x980 resolution)

UT3 Engine games run hellishly and even with everything on lowest setting and with 640x480 resolution they are unplayable with their 4-8 FPS.

Numa Pompilius · Mar 26, 2008, 01:05 PM // 13:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Surena

Superb? It's very outdated. No Z-Axis, no physics (ok, that's not the graphics department), static lights etc.

Really? Have you noticed you can both walk over a bridge, and walk under it? You can't do that in 2.5D games like Doom. The implication is that GW is a true 3D game, it's just that the z-axis is not factored in the combat mechanics (which is why you can stand on the bridge and melee the guys below).

The engine also supports dynamic lighting. If you go to Domain of Anguish you can pick up shining shards and run around with them while illuminating and casting shadows on the surroundings. Dynamic lighting. It's only used there in the entire game AFAIK though.

The texture sizes of the game have progressively increased since release (very obvious if you, say, compare tyrian Druid's Armor to EotN Monument Armor), as well as wrt post processing and polygon count (compare the Ascalon region to the Charr Lands in EotN), and there's no reason to think that the engine is maxed out now.

The engine *is* superb. For most of Guildwars history it's not been running anywhere near maxed-out, because like all MMO's guildwars need to allow people with weak hardware to play - and for all we know it's still nowhere near maxed-out.

Quote:

Well, in 2009 you should expect people having better gaming systems than what they had in 2005, even though most mainstream PCs are still shipped with pretty bad graphics cards (but it haz quadkoar!!!11).

And that is indeed why EotN has significantly better graphics and has significantly higher hardware requirements than Prophecies.

Quote:

Having to resize everything down is what makes developing for the PC so unattractive.

Sorry, that does not make sense. The Wii, for instance, have very weak hardware. Even the Playstation 3 and Xbox360 are already distanced by good gaming systems, and as time progresses in the consoles 5-year product cycle, even the entry point systems will outperform them.
What makes developing single-player games for PC unattractive is the lower profitability due to rampant piracy - but piracy is basically a non-issue for MMO's.

Bryant Again · Mar 26, 2008, 01:14 PM // 13:14

I'd imagine the Unreal 3 engine to be used for like Lineage 3, since L2 is based off of the earlier Unreal engine.

MithranArkanere · Mar 26, 2008, 02:17 PM // 14:17

Anet has its own engine.

They have already stated that they are not using third-party engines, but their own.

Ask this guy:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mike_O%27Brien

Numa Pompilius · Mar 26, 2008, 02:35 PM // 14:35

Lineage 3 sounds like a good bet. Those developers will be used to an unreal engine already.

Plus GW2 is already in development. It's not unheard of that games change engine in mid-development, but usually that means that the project have encountered serious problems and that release will be delayed. Let's hope that doesn't happen to GW2.

Antheus · Mar 26, 2008, 02:35 PM // 14:35

Quote:

Anyway, as I said before, UT3 engine does not make sense to Anet who needs to keep control on the costs to provide us with a no-monthly-fee. So forget it.

Unreal 3 costs around $500,000 per license.

This is much less than developing a new engine. A pro developer that can deliver a AAA GW-quality engine costs around $100,000 a year. You usually need 2-4 of those. In addition, you need a testing lab with several people assembling various hardware (need to buy every single graphics card out there, as well as various CPUs) and people that will assemble them. Add another $100,000. Then you need engine testers, build masters, documentation writers, designers, architects....

Development of new engine takes around 3 years.

Putting it all together, the cost of Unreal license is about 1/3 to 1/6th of what it costs to develop an engine in-house.

This does not include the real cost of game, namely assets and content.

So yes, any AAA game company today would be very well advised to buy a well known and well tested brand name engine. The money saved is speaks for itself.

EternalTempest · Mar 26, 2008, 02:48 PM // 14:48

It has been stated that GW2 will be DX 9 (Aka Windows XP) and DX 10 (Vista).

I do remember reading Anet is modifying the existing game engine already used. Since Gw was originally DX 8, with no advanced Audio (aka EAX, ASIO) and since DX 9, EAX, ASIO sound has been implemented, Anet has the talent to easily make the changes they want to make and offer a DX 9/10 version of the engine.

Since NCSoft has agreed to make mmo games for PS3, and U3 engine can port to game consoles easily (as well as work nice on pc's) I think this is for more future products.

Alleji · Mar 26, 2008, 04:31 PM // 16:31

I always assumed anet would develop its own engine for GW2. (Don't think modifying the existing one will cut it, since actually making the game 3D would require reworking the engine from scratch.)

But I guess that's a possibility... although I'd hope for something flashier by the time 2009 rolls around, U3 won't be top of the line any longer.

Buster · Mar 26, 2008, 05:28 PM // 17:28

Last I heard they was going to upgrade their current engine, though anything is possible. Though the simple fact is unless you have a very good video card now you will be needing to upgrade your current one. You won't need to have the best video card to run GW2 but you will most certainly need something a little better.

Numa Pompilius · Mar 26, 2008, 06:09 PM // 18:09

The game, at release, will be tuned to run well on what at that time is considered an average, or maybe even lowest-common-denominator, machine. That's how MMO's work, they never push the envelope wrt hardware capability. It's a function of their need for mass appeal.

It would surprise me if it didn't turn out so that pretty much any machine, including laptops, bought within a year before GW2's release could run GW2 quite well. I definitely expect that any rig capable of running, say, BioShock or Crysis will be able to run GW2 with ease.

Twonaiver · Mar 26, 2008, 06:30 PM // 18:30

Cryengine 2 > UT3 engine

if GW2 should use other game engine id like to think it wouldnt be the unreal one.

Phoenix Tears · Mar 26, 2008, 06:50 PM // 18:50

look at Aion - Tower of Eternity, then you will know what is 1 of the 2 new mmo's for sure ...

I doubt, that the second will be GW2, because I read yesterday somewhere on the Inet, that Line Age 3 is planned

wetsparks · Mar 26, 2008, 07:05 PM // 19:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

I appreciate very much that Anet is very conservative on these graphics decisions, allowing almost everyone to run the game even with very modest configurations (and I mean modest, no dedicated graphics card or even much video memory). And being able to draw such superbs landscapes and monsters (see the Guess That Scenery™ thread) without monthly fees is an unbelievable feat!

I don't think people realize how true this statement really is. My neighbor can run GW at decent settings and have no problems but cant run Titan Quest (doesn't have a fast enough processor).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

The game, at release, will be tuned to run well on what at that time is considered an average, or maybe even lowest-common-denominator, machine. That's how MMO's work, they never push the envelope wrt hardware capability. It's a function of their need for mass appeal.

That is best described when talking about WoW. The joke about it's graphics are that computer running on rubber tubes could run that game, and Blizzard is laughing all the way to the bank with 1 billion dollars plus in their hands (probably closer to 2 billion this year with a full year of 10 million subscribers and Starcraft 2).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alleji

I always assumed anet would develop its own engine for GW2. (Don't think modifying the existing one will cut it, since actually making the game 3D would require reworking the engine from scratch.)

But I guess that's a possibility... although I'd hope for something flashier by the time 2009 rolls around, U3 won't be top of the line any longer.

The game is 3d, as has been explained, and redesigning the engine will work. The engine in Zelda: Ocarina of Time worked so well for Nintendo that they updated it for Majora's Mask, and used an updated version of it to make Twilight Princess. GW's engine is a strong foundation, so there is no point in tearing it down to build a new foundation when they can build off of it.

Surena · Mar 26, 2008, 07:21 PM // 19:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

Really? Have you noticed you can both walk over a bridge, and walk under it? You can't do that in 2.5D games like Doom. The implication is that GW is a true 3D game, it's just that the z-axis is not factored in the combat mechanics (which is why you can stand on the bridge and melee the guys below).

No need for bad humour. I indeed meant the missing z-axis in combat mechanics. Damn Iway trappers.

Quote:

The engine also supports dynamic lighting. If you go to Domain of Anguish you can pick up shining shards and run around with them while illuminating and casting shadows on the surroundings. Dynamic lighting. It's only used there in the entire game AFAIK though.

So they basically avoided using it which puts up the question: why? Performance drops? Probably.

Quote:

The texture sizes of the game have progressively increased since release (very obvious if you, say, compare tyrian Druid's Armor to EotN Monument Armor), as well as wrt post processing and polygon count (compare the Ascalon region to the Charr Lands in EotN), and there's no reason to think that the engine is maxed out now.

It's not even close to the capabilities of an Oblivion, of course we're talking about a MMO here but the polygon count isn't impressive at all. Textures? Please. Animations are simple and only exist in very limited numbers.

Quote:

What makes developing single-player games for PC unattractive is the lower profitability due to rampant piracy - but piracy is basically a non-issue for MMO's.

Piracy is one thing lack of a good hardware basis the other. As long as DX10 isn't widespread nobody's risking to offer DX10 support from scratch. Instead all we get (until now) is a DX10-on-top version.
Besides that plenty of computers are shipped with lackluster onboard GPUs that also need (as I already mentioned) "support", scalability. There's no official seal that would approve "Games for Windows"-readyness or anything similar. No, consumer Quadcore systems are still shipped with onboard graphics or an 8600 GT.

Let's see what the PC Gaming Alliance is going to do with creating new standards, quality requirements.

Alex the Great · Mar 26, 2008, 07:59 PM // 19:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lionhe4rt

NCsoft owns Anet

U3 runs on most standard systems now. By the time GW2 comes out (I'd bet end 2009..) , U3 is old =P

idk, my laptop is pretty new and it dosen't run UT3 very well even on the lowest settings.

IlikeGW · Mar 26, 2008, 08:33 PM // 20:33

There's no way they'd switch to U3, GW isn't exactly lacking in the technology they need. It's obviously for other NCSoft titles...

IlikeGW · Mar 26, 2008, 08:34 PM // 20:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phoenix Tears

look at Aion - Tower of Eternity, then you will know what is 1 of the 2 new mmo's for sure ...

No, that was on Far Cry's engine, cryengine 1, unless something changed...

Fril Estelin · Mar 26, 2008, 08:35 PM // 20:35

It's funny because when I read people mentioning Crysis (with its unbelievable graphics ... and hardware requirements! when it was out you'd have to buy a PC to go with it ... how mad is that?) I think of ... Oblivion! The orignal one, not the revamped one. Simple graphics, but what a game that was!

My point being: GW is about a balance of videogame aspects, they won't push the enveloppe in terms of graphics further that the natural evolution of graphics. I'm entirely sure GW2 will be stunning, but UT3 or Crysis are definitely not references for the masses.

Nevin · Mar 26, 2008, 08:36 PM // 20:36

Considering GW has already been built upon the engine Anet is using... I doubt they'll switch and ditch; too much work would go down the drain.

On another note.

Unreal III Engine < Crytek Engine